Your idea that men are drawn to Christ, when they never hear of Christ is foreign to scripture.

Romans 10:14 "how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?"

It is impossible for men to believe in Christ unless they HEAR of Christ.
Are you saying that many are drawn to Christ who never heard of him, but this being drawn is "irrelevant to salvation"
Does Christ draw men to himself who never HEAR the gospel, but this drawing to a Christ they never heard of still somehow takes place?
end of quote

Did I argue that someone could ever come to Jesus Christ except the Father who sent Him draws them?

Question for you. Will the Father give to His Son Jesus Christ who suffered and died to satisfy divine righteous justice anyone who is unrepentant and unbelieving?

But do you know why not?

It would be monsterously unjust to Jesus Christ who willing shed His blood to give to Him anyone who tramples under their feet His shed blood, essentially one who hates Him.

Yes! The Father is quite willing to give to His Beloved Son Jesus Christ those brokenhearted and contrite for their sins against God and Jesus is quite willing to save such as them who so don't deserve anything but the wrath of God for their wretched and vile sins against Him.

If they keep putting off and putting off the surrender of their life to Christ to receive Him and were to die in an accident before receiving Christ would they go to heaven or hell? Heaven? I don't think so.
Hell?

And you think they have life? and then believe afterwards?

They have life when they receive Christ!

The knowledge that Jesus Christ was crucified and died is fairly widespread. Why! there are even atheists who will acknowledge the historic fact of His death.

It was certainly one of the historic facts I was aware of while I was lost.

Here are some basic questions that can really get a lost person thinking when God is drawing them.

Is Jesus Christ the Son of God?
Did He die for our sins on the cross?
Is He risen bodily from the dead?

Since you have in sense set yourself up as a Biblical Authority

Please

Explain HOW God DOES NOT USE conscience to "get one to HEAR the gospel"

Explain how God DOES NOT USE creation to get one to HEAR the gospel.

Explain how God DOES NOT USE providence to get one to HEAR the gospel.

Explain how the drawing of God in any of these hinder a man from believing and acting upon the gospel and being saved by God when God brings a man to hear the Gospel of Christ.

Let me testify! In the days that by His matchless grace I no longer have to live in I used to fish on Melton Hill Lake outside of Oak Ridge TN

On Sunday Mornings!

and despite that fact that in my hypocrisy and sin very much enjoyed hearing the Church bell ring in the quite mornings thinking all those church people aren't out here on this here lake bothering my fishing

I could still sense His presence, if that is the right way to word it, in the Creation He had made.

I believe that was just one of the many things God used to draw me to salvation and I thank Him for being so long suffering with me during that time.

or is it

So dead in tresspasses and sins, which they love more than God, more than righteousness that God in His love must bring them to the place where their pride can be broken?

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

Allow me to repeat that it is very important, "God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

Would that have anything to do with those who are broken hearted over their inexcusable sins against God or that they have discovered they are one of "the elect" and not like other sinners?

Surely you've read Romans 1 & 2 ???

Then you should be able to observe there are reasons God Himself gives in being angry with the wicked and turning the wicked over to their sin.

Check closely YOU WILL NOT FIND in these chapters that God ever predestined them from eternity past to His anger and wrath and because of His predestinating them they fulfilled His will by being so wicked THAT HE CAN BE FREE TO HATE THEM.

And if God didn't predestinate them such that He would be free to hate them then there was the possibility of His mercy to them BUT THEY REJECTED IT.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Canons?
Would that be from Dort or Orange or Someother place?

Does this mean you believe people must interpret Scripture under the approval of some You Alls "Religious" Authority?

"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

God forbid:

yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

Considering the ongoing debate I don't agree with you but at least you were nice enough to simply call him a heretic, even though I believe you are wrong.

Is it because he keeps coming back to the reality that "the world" in John 3:16 means just that the world, every man, woman, girl and boy who has ever lived or ever will in all of history and not "the elect alone and only"?

Renounce your belief that God so love the whole world and now believe He hates the whole world, except for a few elite theologian types who can figure out how someone can be born again before they have faith or repent?

Renouce your belief sinners convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit and by the Word of God can respond to God's call in repentance and faith and be saved by God from their sins?

Renounce your belief that people can come to love God and other people apart from 5 Point Calvinism which of course doesn't believe God loves anyone but the elect.

Renouce your belief that people have the right to read and study their Bibles and believe what it says apart from the approval of the experts at Geneva, Dort, Westminister, etc.

This summer when she was in the emergency room with heart problems God opened the door for me to give hear a King James Bible. She had never read the Bible for herself as her priests had taught her not to as a little girl.

Anyway. Praise God she has been reading it. Perhaps not as much as I would like but this is a major change for her from where she has been before.

My mother is not saved. The Roman Catholic Religion and her own sins and failures have done much to take her further and further into darkness. Still even as elderly as she is God can still save her and I pray for her that He does.