I know this might be difficult for you but allow me to let you in on a little secret. It is kind of like we can tell a Jew that he or she doesn't have to quit being a Jew to accept Christ nor do they have to become Roman Catholic.

You don't have to become an Arminian or that other name the one who denied Adam's sin affected us all if you stop being a 5 Point Calvinist. You can simply have the liberty to believe the Bible as God gave it in the context He gave it. I believe you will enjoy your Christianity a whole lot more and I believe God will be pleased to have you listen to Him, to His Word without having to force it into the mold of the 5 Points.

At the same time there are others who are quite popular and viewed as being such good Christians such as James Dobson, Rick Warren, Jerry Falwell, (you can probably give names you are familar with) I hope they are Christians but with those they have choosen to align themselves with I must wonder.

With all that has been said, with Historic facts, I am having to consider some people have a predisposition to be biased for their particular view and missrepresent what the other side is actually saying. I know this embarrasingly myself.

That said, I am more and more considering that Arminius has been missrepresented by the Calvinists to shut off any consideration tha his objections to the dogmatism of Calvinism had some quite valid points.

and the church state marriages of Catholicism and Calvinism whereby any who disagreed with "the church" were at risk of severe punishment by the government.

Likewise when the state is not married to "the church" it is free to step in and should step in and get involved in cases of actual crimes such as know sex scandals with both Baptists and Catholics.

Such things are different that informing church members of candidates voting records, their platforms etc.,think.

By the way some Baptist Churches are quite Calvinistic or maybe you didn't want to know that.

Then why do Calvinists today seemingly hate him so much?

I'm still learning about Dort and its condemnation of Arminians and the genuine heretic Michael Servetus who was burned at Geneva and how much Calvinism contributed to this and other persecutions.

I'm not comfortable with any group that thinks they have a mission from God to enforce their beliefs on others at threat of death by the unholy marriage of state and "church". I was raised Roman Catholic so I do not want to substitue a Protestant Papacy/Inquistion for a Roman one.

Secondus wrote,
Quote
John Calvin was NOT a citizen of Geneva. He was French not Genevan.
In the last few years of his life he became one. Long after Servetus's
End of Quote

Long after Servetus's death????
From what I've found he was arrested after (or at )attending a service where Calvin was preaching.

John Calvin born July 14, 1509
died in 1564

Michael Servetus executed (died) October 17, 1553

Secondus, It appears you delibrately lied to me and anyone who would read your post about Servetus death being long after John Calvin's.

Why?

I have had experience with the Roman Catholic Religion denying the Inquisition and likewise am aware there are some who deny the Holocaust. And I am sure there are sites and or articles in favor of their view also.

And by the way just because, "The Justice and Punishment for heresy in 16th century Europe, including Geneva, was burning." doesn't make it right does it.

You apparently hold to 5 point Calvinism. So let ask how do you reconcile or does it really bother you, that Calvin would be so zealous in his beliefs that Calvin would have one of the foremost genuine heretics of the day burned at the stake?

Do you have any references to the beheadings, imprisonments, fines, etc. that were going on in Geneva during the time Calvin was incharge there?

I am still chewing on this. Jesus told us that you would know them by their fruits and I seem to recall Jesus commanded us to love our enemies.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and Roman Catholics all use to one degree or another some of the same words a genuine born again of the Holy Spirit child of God Christian would use.

They just don't mean the same things by them.

Genuine born again of the Holy Spirit children of the Living God Christians have a lot of learning and growing to do in whatever time on this earth God would see fit to allow us to remain here, and for that matter sometimes a lot of unlearning to do.

Our salvation rests upon Jesus Christ not how perfectly or imperfectly we can express what has happened to us in words. Granted some words would show there really isn't Biblical life changing faith there (a certain individual who refuses to come out of the Roman Catholic Religion comes to mind).

I do not believe this is the case with b.a. She may be imperfect in her faith and like any of us be hindered in how to put such a staggering reality as coming to salvation into words but her salvation rests with Christ who is the Savior. If He has saved her she is saved. And I believe there is evidence of this.

I have to have some agreement with you here. I could not have accepted Christ, had faith in Him, except that God had convicted me and brought His Word into my life with understanding.

Sometimes I think we are so imperfect in describing the utter miracle that God has wrought in our lives the nitt pickers will find fault in our words no matter what they are.

As for me and hopefully for many more who have read your words I appreciate your faith in Jesus Christ and the love you have for him and your desire to see those who are lost saved. And we certainly do not have to agree on things that have to do with our own personal convictions to love one another and earnestly seek God for people to come to be saved and rejoice when they are.

Hmmmm? For all our "discussion" on John Chapter 3 did we, myself included, ever acknowledge the utter change of life that happened when we were born again of the Holy Spirit. Whew! I think I need to go repent over this.

I apologize to all of you. God deserves the glory and here I am saved and having the opportunity to give Him glory at how utterly He changed my life. I used to hate Christians, the real born again ones, not so much the wishy washey hypocrits but the ones who were not afraid to tell me the truth. And then when He saved me I now loved the people I hated and was appauled (now hate) at the sins I once loved. The Holy Spirit living in us makes us so different, Thank God!

MBL, thanks for passing the message by way of Yamil. I've been doing some thinking on Job's wife speaking as the foolish women were doing.

b.a. doesn't act this way. she may disagree with us but I still believes she loves us.

It makes me want to weep for them. Can they not see or do they not want to see the depth of love that God has for them? Even in the flesh someone ought to be able to appreciate someone who has given their life to save another's and here we have not just a caring fireman or police officer but God Himself humbling Himself to become a man so that He could go to the cross for us. Where has their theology taken them???

Anyway since this thread is about Church Government, whatever kind you have I sure hope and pray your leaders appreciate the cross.

Yes, He certainly did open my eyes (many were praying in New York State and in the State of Tennessee for me) and He brought His Word, Scripture into my life, and made as clear as I needed to understand it that being a Christian was not just a Sunday morning thing but of my entire life.

One of the things that so shocked me in those days and still does is that even though He knew all the wretched things I had done and quite deserving of death and the eternal hell that He still loved me, because He is Love and that Jesus Christ had died for me.

Scripture says, God is Love
Scripture says, But God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Scripture says, And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God in His great love for us, for wretched sinners, at extreme cost to Himself had Jesus to die and you are worried that I make fun of a ridiculous dogma that somehow people who hear of Christ and believe in Him and call out to Him to save them from their sins are somekind of arminian heretics because they believe faith is not a work but a gift from God by His Word and the Conviction of the Holy Spirit that precedes new birth!

Is your wife your wife?
She sure nuff is.

How did it happen?

Well you see I picked her.
You picked her?

And she fell in love with you?
Nah! She didn't even know me from Andy of Mayberry.

Then how did she ever marry you?
Well it was all predestinated powers.
Predestinated powers?

Uh you know predestinated powers, she didn't have to know me from Barney Fife, I just used my powers on her.
What powers?

How many times do I hava tell you.
You know the powers what makes a woman fall madely in love with you befores she's even laid eyes on you ---- makes her go out and buy a wedding dress, bake a real nice cake, and show up at the church not even knowing why she is there! It is so funny these predestinating powers.

What to know where I ahs got um?
Where could you ever get such powers?

Got um in old Geneva from an old fella named John, sure nuf did.

Now let me ask you this does she now go around saying she had absolutely nothing to do with marrying you? Why Not! it was impossible for her to legally move into your house and use your checking account if she was not your wife. What good work had she ever done? Did she pay for your house? No! Did she put money into your checking account? No!

Now she is still your wife??? How could this be? Did you force her against her will? Did you use alcohol? Drugs? Lure her with money?

What! You simply asked her and she accepted, yet you did all the work of buying a house and it was you who put all the money in the check book and she didn't have to do a thing!!!