quote
michael
you said
"ones hope must be in whether or not he or she is elect"

this is just plain wrong.
end of quote

If you carefully reread some of the comments of the zealous 5 pointers they so emphasize their election and even claiming to be regenerated (saved) before faith that what they emphasize goes contrary what God Himself repeated emphasizes in Scripture in thing such as

the filth and heinousness of our sin
our hopeless condition to remedy this
His unmerited love in sending Jesus Christ to died for sinners
His repeated call to men to repent and to believe in Jesus Christ

and His promise
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Since election is so personal to God Himself the emphasizing of election gives the sinner absolutely no hope unless they are elect and takes away from loving Jesus Christ who willingly died for them. And sadly among the zealous 5 pointers callouses their hearts to weep over sinners and to seek by any rightfull means for their salvation.

Here is something to think about

Ultimately with a 5 Point Calvinist ones hope must be in whether or not he or she is elect, because if you are not elect no amount of works, effort, godly sorrow, and yes even knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross was buried and was raised again from the dead none of it can save you unless you are elect.

My hope is in the Word of God that this Jesus Christ who died on the cross willingly shedding His precious blood was buried was raised from the dead was for me BECAUSE God desires none to perish, that includes a wretch like me, and for all to come to repentance, Praise God that includes me, and that I would believe the gospel for after all Jesus Himself preached ...repent and believe the gospel...so I have confidence to surrender my will to His revealed will and believe on Jesus Christ to save me from my sins and give me everlasting life knowing He is faithful to His Word and knowing He is faithful to the Father's will.

Sola Scriptura –His Written Word is Holy having the very authority of God Himself above all Leaders and Traditions to teach and command us in what we think, believe and in how we live.

Personal Repentance – Something no one else can do for us, not even God. Who may grant repentance, even so convict by the Holy Spirit that you know you’ll perish in hell if you don’t. We must turn from our sinful self-centered living to the obedience of faith in Christ. Far more than attending church or getting religious.

Grace Alone – Being in hopeless guilt before Him, your repentance doesn’t save you from your sins. God Himself must do this – forgiving, cleansing you of sins, giving you new birth in the Holy Spirit, making you His beloved child forever. Things impossible for anyone else in heaven or on earth to do for you

Faith Alone – The only way we may receive the gift of God eternal life. God must provide and give it and He is quite faithful to give it to those who believe.

However those embracing 5 Point TULIP Calvinism do align themselves with a Theological System that does present itself as superior, and for that matter with some, the only true Christianity.

As to my "beef" with the 'Calvinists' is something you yourself have repeatedly denied, that the world in John 3:16 is just that and further compound that miss by claiming someone is regenerated before they have faith which goes against the terms God Himself gives of the gospel - repentance and faith.

So to have regeneration before faith one must needs redefine what the lostness of man is into total inability becasue if sinners are able to respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the preaching of the Word of God before regeneration, and they are, Calvinism take a person away from the truth not towards it.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

How about these verses.
"Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; ..."

Absolute heartbrokeness over ones own sins (something you don't necessarily get with graduate level theological training)

A hearts desire to be pleasing to God and to be obedient to Him

Humble faith in Jesus Christ to save one from sins and deep gratefullness for His death, His shed blood, for the new birth in the Holy Spirit

A wonderful desire that motivates one to desire others to know Jesus Christ and to be saved by Him

Humble honest prayer, the seeking of the face of God and acceptance of His call for ones life.

A looking forward to that wonderful day to finally see the Savior face to face, to see Him just as He is in all of His glory.

Others may word such things differently but somehow I get the picture that to some of the educated these things are too beneath them or too pietistic or even too fundemental.

I've been listening to what they have been saying and it appears rather than being changed by God for God many have had a 'Calvinistic Conversion' and are changed by "Calvinism for "Calvinism" which become apparent in how they use words and speak of things such as the croos.

I'm not wanting to blast them but it seems somewhere they've gotten seriously off track and zoom by the reality of Jesus Christ actually having to die and shed His blood and be raised from the dead for their salvation - replacing this with the notion of being regenerated before faith.

Anyway, May God help believers to stay close to our Lord who died for us knowing there was no other way that we could be saved except through His precious shed blood and His resurrection from the dead.

Would it be alright with you to share how God brought you to Himself, convicted you that you were a guilty sinner and brought you to repentance and when you trusted Jesus Christ to save you He did?

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

You might notice that absolute absence of "How can they believe unless they are regenerated (born again-before faith)" and this passage has to do with being SAVED!

God can save sinners. And He can do it according to His terms of the gospel - bringing them to repentance and faith.

Which of course makes it ridiculous for the Philippian Jailer to be asking,
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" as with what I might call "Predestinational Regeneration" he already would have been saved whether or not he repented and whether or not he believed because according to what the 'Calvinists' have been teaching God had to make him alive (which is really what salvation has to do with) before he could believe but that would actually be kind of optional just like Calvinist seem to have made personal repentance optional.

Renounce any belief that God so loved the whole world, meaning every person, as it states clearly in John 3:16 and now believe He hates the world, and now give election and predestination meanings that do not agree with the terms of the gospel (repentance and faith).

Renouce any belief that God can so convict sinners before they are born again of their sins by the Holy Spirit and by the Word of God whereby they are able to respond to God's call in repentance and faith and be saved by God from their sins.

Renounce any belief that people so saved by God can love God and be obedient to Him and His Word and love other people apart from 5 Point Calvinism.

Renounce the belief that people have the right to read and study their Bibles and believe what it says apart from the approval of ecclesiastical experts at Geneva, Dordt, Westminister, etc.

Read back on some of these posts and see how some are claiming they're saved (regenerated, born again) before they came to repentance and faith.

You do know these are the terms God Himself gives for the gospel or has 'Calvinism' hid that from you?

After all even thought they don't believe John 3:16 means God love every single man, woman, girl and boy who has ever lived or ever will in all of history we don't have to let their unbelif keep us from loving them with the same love with which He has loved us.