1. Worldly Madonna claiming Jesus, even as she proudly does unmentionable things -- she's now endorsing works.
2. Worldly Bono claiming Jesus, even as he chants in concerts: "Jesus, Jew, Mohammed ... all true" -- he endorses works.
3. Rick Warren, in the name of Jesus, after bringing the things of the world into the church, now moving from initiating a worship of "worship" (PDL) to working his P.E.A.C.E. plan, and distributing to native peoples all around the world ... copies of his book, "The Purpose Driven Life".

MANY people have been helped through the centuries in the name of the Jesus -- served by humble Christians, unnamed and unacknowledged, whose love was scriptural: "If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15b ... brothers and sisters in the Lord whose good works were FRUITS of the Holy Spirit.

The BIBLE says: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not ... in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:22;23

An "interfaith coalition of denominations and faith groups" headquartered at Hartford Seminary determined that "congregations that use contemporary styles of worship have experienced substantial growth."

Among the "congregations" surveyed were: The National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of the United States, Seventh-day Adventist congregations, Reform and Conservative Jewish congregations, Roman Catholic congregations, and the Unitarian Universalist Association.

A causal relationship between: a) adoption of worldly techniques, and b) growth in participation, when groups as varied as these are lumped together in a survey is MEANINGLESS.

Interestingly enough, one group: U.S. Christian "megachurches" was defined as being only "2% Fundamentalist" in makeup.

http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4702

There at Rick Warren's pastors.com, right at the top of the page, it explicitly states that churches who want to be on his team need to relocate "to a new site" and change to "a new name".

Anyone who has witnessed the utter tyranny of Warren's tactics has seen this happen to AT LEAST one church in his or her town.

Read down the list in the rest of the article.

After all this time, is there anyone who DOESN'T realize that the Contemporary Church Movement of the past 10 years has been CAREFULLY crafted and controlled by Rick Warren of Saddleback (Baptist) Church?

Here's more of the info from the secret documents MILLIONS of American Christians never knew were controlling the very life of their own churches:

Thank you very much for writing back.

... I've never really thought about the 501(c)3: What a set of chains that is!

I've read in the Bible: "no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

... and wondered: How could that EVER happen? (And I'm not saying that 501c3 is exactly the same thing as 666), though it certainly gives us a pattern:

How a government can put a leash on preachers -- FIRST with an income tax, and THEN with tax-free status for churches -- IF we cooperate in turning churches into:

... ONE big BUSINESS.

We are members of THE Body of Christ. Whereas individuals unified into A BODY, is the very definition of "INCORPORATED"!

The stated goal of the CFR is to create a:

... ONE-world GOVERNMENT.

Rick Warren "trains" Baptists, Methodists ... AND he trains Mormons and Roman Catholics, too! He won't give out the gospel to Jews (see: synagogue3000.org/video.html). Instead, he helps them to GROW their congregations.

It's as if Rick Waren were trying to create a ... ONE-world RELIGION.

... and no one seems to care!

... which has pretty much been the Rock Mantra for the last 50+ years, except that until about 5 or 10 years ago, that philosophy didn't include the words: "in church".

Or "in God's name".

... or, for that matter, "even if teenagers by the millions LEAVE the church, spiritually starved, because of it."

It's not surprising: the grandfather of their philosophy, Rick Warren -- author of the Purpose Driven Life -- apparently thinks music is "neutral", too.

... as on Sun. April 17, 2006 before 30,000 people, when this "Christian pastor", accompanied by his Saddleback Church "praise" band, sang these lyrics:

Purple haze all in my eyes,
Dont know if its day or night
You got me blowin, blowin my mind
Is it tomorrow, or just the end of time?

These CCMist LYRICS (and music) were by Jimi Hendrix, who knew music was anything BUT neutral. He said:

Wow ... what a great time of praising and thanking the Lord we've had this week as we've taken many different moments together to praise His name with each other and to pray to Him and thank Him with each other.

We've had so many really blessed moments when we've done that, and at times away from the table of food and the chit-chat of conversations with old friends, separating ourselves together to a quiet place:

... unaccompanied by music (at those particular moments) ... and not relying on any sort of entertainment device -- and certainly not leaning on "cultural relevancy" to understand what God has set forth plainly in the scriptures about the seriousness of sin, the danger of compromise, and the glorious blessing of salvation!

I can imagine that in many, many homes across America this week, a stranger to the Lord could have been invited, and with the Word of God open and believing friends gathered around, he or she could have been told about Jesus -- and in that atmosphere ... Wow! What a great way to witness: Listening to the Holy Spirit, the Word at the ready ...

Maybe we should think about trying something like THAT?

! You have "liberty", correct?

"But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak." 1 Corinthians 8:9

... people lost in sin need JESUS.

Not a rock 'n' roll show.

... traditionally, "religious music" in the church that BORDERS on the secular has been reserved for other events:

* Loud, boisterous Southern Gospel music, for instance -- though joyful and joyously enjoyed by many people -- has often been presented as a Friday or a Saturday night "special" event by churches who want to be very CAREFUL about what they bring into the Lord's house.

* And did you know? Handel's Messiah was first presented, NOT IN CHURCH, but in a theater! What average person today could imagine thinking that Messiah wasn't at least "churchy" sounding music?

Rock 'n' Roll music cannot save ANYBODY. It will not.

... but Jesus can.

And so perhaps, Arthur, CCMists who DO have "charity", lest they become as "sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal", could consider playing their tunes at home.

Actually ... YOUR CROWD has been quite successful in doing THAT!

I'm RE-acting to the TYRANNY of CCMism in America's churches, spread like wildfire in these few years.

Kind, responsible and consistent Christians by the millions have been told in thousands of churches to:

"Stand up. Shut up. And enjoy the rock show."

... because RATHER than allowing the Holy Spirit to do HIS business -- lead people to Jesus Christ -- CCMists have tried to push HIM aside so that they can "have it their way".

And the thing is: The INCREDIBLE saints in the churches (often the elderly, who've had their MONEY gladly received to pay for the sound & light show, and then have been kicked around like dogs),

... they HAVE shut up.

They may have had one meeting with their pastor, or expressed concerns to a friend. But because THEY are kind, responsible and consistent -- and too old to change churches ... which many built with their very hands -- they hobble up on their walkers and canes and stand as long as they can while the performers (some of the few actually enjoying it) bask in the limelight of the concert.

THIS is the tyranny. And it is widespread.

"YOU deny scripture calling for praise through stringed instruments, drums and horns."

... where? If you are right and I am wrong, SHOW me where I did that?

"YOU deny scripture calling us to shout to the Lord with song and music".

... where? If you are right and I am wrong, SHOW me where I did that?

"YOU deny scripture telling us to praise Him with a joyful NOISE!"

... don't doubt that, Arthur, one bit.

But what we're SUPPOSED to be doing is allowing the Holy Spirit in us to tell us what HE wants us to do in the way HE wants us to do it.

... otherwise, Christianity just becomes one big talent show.

Which it has.

... leaving millions of people to suffer at the hands of the CCMers who've pushed their way to the front of the church so that THEY can do what THEY want to do: play music that THEY like in the way that THEY like to.

... when the PURPOSE of the church isn't to put on rock shows.

... whether it's done in Jesus' name or not.

Hence Jesus himself warns: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord ... have we not ... in thy name done many wonderful works?"

Thank you, Arthur.

Thank you.

... you sound like a nice person. If you sincerely love the Lord Jesus, and you HONESTLY believe I am criticizing YOU for praising God -- God forbid -- please, brother: I am asking for YOUR forgiveness.

But the BASIC elements of your statement is the problem.

... and it's not your fault.

Modern Cain -- Rick warren et al -- has convinced the world that if we don't recreate the WORLD inside of the CHURCH, then the lost won't be saved!

GOD HAVE MERCY ON US!!!

ONLY Jesus can save.

... only Jesus.

And NOW we live in a world where you talk to people about the Lord and try to share the gospel with them and encourage them to come to BIBLE STUDY at your church -- and the first words out of there mouths are:

* Do they have a good band?

* Can I wear grubby jeans or should I dress like I would for a date with someone I liked?

* Are we going to have micro-brew coffee or just Starbucks like the other mega-churches?

... one local couple where I live -- good friends of good friends -- BASED their decision on HIS being able to play the drums in church ... HERS, she insisted on YOGA classes.

Exodus 32:8 "They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt."

There are SERIOUS consequences to bringing rock 'n' roll into the church.

Hence, the Christian Post (albeit, sloppily) published an article entitled, "Bible-Based Youth Ministry Bumps Out Pop Culture", saying that the "MTV culture" has "successfully drawn a large number of youths to the pews. But it has failed to keep them there."

HOW one goes about discerning what is appropriate church music for even teenagers to be exposed to is EXTREMELY crucial.

Allow me to repeat that:

HOW one goes about discerning what is appropriate church music for even teenagers to be exposed to is EXTREMELY crucial.

You have argued (and, it seems, nearly every one else has who is ardently pro-CCM) that "music is neutral".

Music is NOT neutral.

... and with the very SOULS of our youth at stake, we cannot say: "music is neutral" and expect that philosphy to keep the garbage out.

If all musical styles are neutral, WHY DID THE OLD BLUESMEN BELIEVE THAT CERTAIN KINDS OF RHYTHMS CAUSED WOMEN TO BE MORALLY LOOSE?

Professor Longhair’s boogie-woogie piano music is said to have caused women to "jump and wriggle" in a lascivious manner. B.B. King said in his autobiography, "The women reacted with their bodies flowing to a rhythm coming out of my guitar."

Those are powerful statements about the effect of a specific kind of music and rhythm. Were the bluesmen confused about their music?

No, music is NOT neutral; music is a language.

Frank Zappa: "Rock music is sex. The big beat matches the body’s rhythms".

Gene Simmons: "That's what rock is all about--sex with a 100 megaton bomb, the beat!"

"Rock 'n' roll is 99% sex", John Oates of Hall & Oates.

"Rock ‘n’ roll is pagan and primitive, and very jungle, and that’s how it should be!", Malcolm McLaren, punk rock manager.

Robert Palmer: "Rock and roll aims for liberation and transcendence, EROTICIZING THE SPIRITUAL AND SPIRITUALIZING THE EROTIC, because that is its ecumenical birthright".

Patti Labelle: "Rock and roll was something that’s hardcore, rough and wild and sweaty and wet and just loose".

... what do you mean: "is not mine"?

... no one in this discussion has suggested that! NO one!!

... I've been asking myself "Why?" for so long.

Why don't pastors openly decry this stuff?

It's like these message boards (I'm new to this) and I keep noticing a strange pattern:

Almost any time a discussion about something such as Rick Warren gets large, all of a sudden, there are posters that suddenly pop in with cryptic, little witty comments that really don't mean much -- certainly don't appear to be very heart felt -- and generally are just sort of "out of left field".

For instance, to your comment they might say:

So, SP: Are you saying the Council on Foreigh Relations is Satan? Isn't that going a little far?

... you know? They put words in your mouth or re-state your arguement to their own benefit -- Rhetoric 101, I realize -- but I've been thinking about this:

Do YOU (SP) think it is possible that some of these guys are "pumpers", like on the stock-market message boards ...

... or perhaps are members of various organizations sympathetic to, e.g. Warren, or that perhaps: they are even being PAID by someone -- such as publishing companies -- to watch these exchanges so when something about say, "Purpose Driven", comes up, they jump on it just to drive the conversation away from something meaningful?

This:

Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares ... ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness ... "

... as the CCMists rose to power, infesting churches with Rock 'n' Roll.

Daniel 3:7 "Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, AND ALL KINDS OF MUSICK, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image ... "

Of course, ONE thing's missing from TODAY'S musical cacaphony:

... while the watered-down "sermons" the CCMists preach get shorter every week, giving way to even more gimmicks, dancing and pop-culture plays.

Revelation 13:15 "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

Hypnotized by endless repetitions of Rock-Music Choruses, the victims of the CCMists stand in congregations of the tens of thousands, ready and willing for the next "big thing" to come down the pike of CCMist invention; and all the while, "ALL KINDS OF MUSICK" will be playing.