Dr. Tim wrote:
John, re-read what I actually said. How can anyone who is not elect come to Jesus and be saved? How can anyone who has come to Jesus and been saved not be elect? And I still say, as does the Bible, that ANYONE who comes to Jesus in repentance and faith for salvation will be saved. No amount of scripture twisting and Greek slinging will ever convince me otherwise.

"I still say, as does the Bible, that ANYONE who comes to Jesus in repentance and faith for salvation will be saved. No amount of scripture twisting and Greek slinging will ever convince me otherwise."

I don't have a problem with that. The Doctrines of Free and Sovereign Grace claim that, as should all Christian men and women.

Now, "How can anyone who is not elect come to Jesus and be saved?"

They cannot. They do not wish it, and so they never come. They are not elect, therefore they never come, they never seek after God. So I agree with you.

Now, "How can anyone who has come to Jesus and been saved not be elect?"

It is impossible, for it is only the elect who will come to believe and come to Christ and are saved." So I agree with you.

Dr. Tim wrote:
As I was saying, whosoever comes to Jesus and receives salvation from Him IS elect.I can’t imagine why this is so hard to understand.

Not all the former are saved, and not all the latter are saved. Salvation is dependent on the sovereign will and purpose of God. And none that are saved will ever fully understand the mysteries of God. Anyone who believes they do reminds me of the devil who wished to be like unto God.

We really need to take our place in humility, and that will only happen if the Lord gives us an Isaiah 6 experience of his greatness and our foulness. Apart from something like that, self-rightness will always be there somewhere. Even righteous Job needed that experience, and it caused him to repent at the close of his book.

Phillip Mezzapelle wrote:
I just Emailed BLM and asked them if the life of an African-American baby still in the womb matters. Doubt it though if they will have the courage and decency to respond. On a number of occasions I have asked them what MLK would think of BLM. Also if the lives of the African Christians, who are subject to torture, imprisonment and death on a daily basis matter. Still waiting for a response.

Lurker wrote:
It has, John.
But, as I'm sure you'll agree, God doesn't use a cookie cutter to stamp out identical replicas of His servants. Some of us are toenails while others are ears and knee caps and so on. But we all fit together in one body to serve His calling and purpose and all the more so during these troubling and dark days many of us believe are very near the end of days.
So each of us are obliged to follow the course we believe God called us to walk even though it differs from others. Hope that makes sense.

Now what I have done for Bro US and Dan is to rewrite the paragraph 7 without the negatives. It helps.

Paragraph 7. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.

Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Thank you for your response John. Thanks for your input James and Lurker.
Your answer now looks very similar to my 8/1/2020 9:58 AM post John We agree obviously then on that. It does appear different that what you implied in early responses, sorry for the misunderstanding.

John 6:53 KJV
(53) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

So, brother, however you interpret the eating of his flesh and drinking his blood, you will still have to do it, or you have no life in you. So how and when do you eat his flesh and drink his blood? Thank you.

BTW, if you want to check out the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 30, paragraph 7 on the Lord's Supper, it might help you with the answer.

James Thomas wrote:
John,
This will be my last one on this so
Here's the jist of it all in the Luke 14 context and how I see it.
Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Forsake all their works of self righteousness.

The one who put me on to the possibility of this was Dave from Oz, who shared with the forum of his multiple hour meetings at his home and the amount of scripture they got through, compared to the normal 60 min 'church service'.

Today, as usual, I shall be overseeing a four hour meeting of saints, during which time we shall seek to be led by the Spirit in Bible studying, taking the communion together, praying together, showing concern for one another, and discussing the mission we are engaged in. I have never in all my life experienced such joy in meeting with fellow Christians, and commend the format to anyone.

Lurker wrote:
I could tell you in one short sentence the results of my studies but that wouldn't profit you. The blessing is in the journey of discovery which was the purpose of my comment.

Can I ask you if your discovery has produced a practical benefit to you? This is really all I am interested in. I never do anything these days for curiosities sake, I desire to be more fruitful, more holy, more happy, more pleasing to the Lord, more submitted to him, more sacrificial, more blessed, more used of him, better in character, more powerful in service, a better example, a good mentor, more prosperous, and so on.

As I read paragraph 7 of the 1689 Baptist confession, I do see a huge benefit of taking communion, when taken correctly, instead of merely going through the form, without the faith which really and spiritually connects us with the Lord Jesus Christ, with his body and blood, and all the benefits which come from that direction.

Lurker wrote:
Here, at Israel's entering the Promised Land, God compares rain (upper water) to His doctrine and speech which circumcises hearts. Learn what God's doctrine is and you'll learn the significance of the elements of the Lord's table which are a figure of the reality

In the meantime, Bro US, I have kept my promise to answer your questions, and would love to hear your response. BTW, paragraph 7 is the one I am focussed on, and it is rather special, making the communion a source of great blessing and spiritual growth.

Paragraph 6. That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine, into the substance of Christ's body and blood, commonly called transubstantiation, by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant not to Scripture alone, but even to common sense and reason, overthrows the nature of the ordinance, and has been, and is, the cause of manifold superstitions, yea, of gross idolatries.

Paragraph 7. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.

Paul's life was wholly taken up with Christ, not living for himself any longer. Personally I do not call that dung. He did refer to dung in his testimony in Philippians, but that referred to all the OT and old covenant privileges, not the teaching of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:15 KJV
(15)  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Every Christian is to live wholly and solely for Jesus Christ, not for themselves any longer. This is called 'under new management' and involves handing over the reins to him, being a good steward of all he gives.

Paragraph 3. The Lord Jesus hath, in this ordinance, appointed his ministers to pray, and bless the elements of bread and wine, and thereby to set them apart from a common to a holy use, and to take and break the bread; to take the cup, and, they communicating also themselves, to give both to the communicants.

Paragraph 4. The denial of the cup to the people, worshipping the elements, the lifting them up, or carrying them about for adoration, and reserving them for any pretended religious use, are all contrary to the nature of this ordinance, and to the institution of Christ.

Paragraph 5. The outward elements in this ordinance, duly set apart to the use ordained by Christ, have such relation to him crucified, as that truly, although in terms used figuratively, they are sometimes called by the names of the things they represent, in other words, the body and blood of Christ, albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.

BTW, because of limited characters, I have removed the texts which go alongside these paragraphs. So if you want the link to the full works, you've only got to ask.

James Thomas wrote:
Per the context St. John, That is a specific group of people that was being spoken to.... not all people.

Luke 14:31-33 KJV
(31)  Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
(32)  Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
(33)  So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Oh sure, for many it is all too much, expecting such a sacrifice. And there I was thinking salvation was a free gift, and now Jesus wants so much from me. It is grossly unfair, and I'm not sure I could go along with that.

Matthew 19:21-22 KJV
(21)  Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
(22)  But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Bro US (and Dan if you are still watching).

Allow me the privilege of thrilling your heart by showing you what conclusions over 100 pastors arrived at concerning the communion in 1689. Such joy.

CHAPTER 30; OF THE LORD’S SUPPER

Paragraph 1. The supper of the Lord Jesus was instituted by him the same night wherein he was betrayed, to be observed in his churches, unto the end of the world, for the perpetual remembrance, and showing to all the world the sacrifice of himself in his death, confirmation of the faith of believers in all the benefits thereof, their spiritual nourishment, and growth in him, their further engagement in, and to all duties which they owe to him; and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with him, and with each other.

Paragraph 2. In this ordinance Christ is not offered up to his Father, nor any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin of the quick or dead, but only a memorial of that one offering up of himself by himself upon the cross, once for all; and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God for the same. So that the popish sacrifice of the mass, as they call it, is most abominable, injurious to Christ's own sacrifice the alone propitiation for all the sins of the elect.

James Thomas wrote:
Faith is not the human ability to reason and make informed decisions.

1 Corinthians 10:20 KJV
(20)  But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

This is during his discourse on the Lord's Supper. Note,

"and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils; as all wicked men have, in the commission of any lust, sin, or immorality; and as all idolaters have in their superstitious practices, and idolatrous worship; and if grace prevent not, will have to all eternity in everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels; wherefore the apostle would have the Corinthians flee from idolatry, and all appearance of it, and abstain from eating things offered to idols, **of which they could not eat without having fellowship with devils**; this he says, to deter them from such practices, which must be very horrible and shocking, and bespeaks in him great care of them, and affection for them." Gill

Now Bro US, you see why I say there is far more to the communion than we have ordinarily been taught? There is the Lord's Table and a Devilish Table, and at the latter, the partaker fellowships with demons.

Greetings wrote:
Good point John. The gift of prophecy has ceased now

Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Yes please, and I have started an answer to your question but please respond to mine, thanks

Your questions are: "The verses you cited still teach that communion is symbolic. Are you trying to say it is not? Are you saying there is more to it than symbolism?"

I will do my best to answer, as I do not see it as yes/no answers. I will answer both questions together.

The bread and wine which you hold in your hand, you are going to eat the bread and drink the wine. Are they bread and wine? Yes. Do they represent the broken body and shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ? Yes.

Is there more to it than symbolism? I believe there is far more to the communion than is commonly understood. And I believe there is far more to communion than a simple remembrance.

For example, I hold the bread in my hand and I am thinking about Jesus. I put it in my mouth and chew on it, and I am thinking about Jesus. I am thinking about his broken body (which is why we break the bread). My focus is on Jesus and what he has done for me, in permitting his body to be broken. There is a specific reason why we have bread and wine not just wine, but not for the moment - later.

Michael Hranek wrote:
Brother John
it is because of Scripture I disagree
Please reread the 2 I've posted to you there are more
For instance Philip the Evangelist had 4 daughters who prophesied
Off to church

Let us look at one of your proof texts for women preaching the gospel.

Acts 21:8-9 KJV
(8)  And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
(9)  And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Certainly Philip was a preacher of the gospel; he was an evangelist; he saw a great many converted.